Hideo Kojima and Nicolas Winding Refn Are Blurring the Lines Between Games and Cinema

After seven weeks of intense competition, the second annual Esports World Cup ended this past weekend in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia. Amid the triple-digit heat index outside, fierce gameplay in the grand finals of titles like Crossfire, Street Fighter 6, and Counter-Strike 2 reached a fever pitch within Boulevard City’s SEF Arena. But while the world’s largest esports tournament approached its apex, another major event in the Saudi capital was happening nearby.

Held from Aug. 23 to 24, the New Global Sport Conference was perhaps quieter than the high stakes spectacle in the neighboring coliseum but served an equally important role in the present and future of gaming. Over the course of two days, hundreds of movers and shakers from across the landscape of digital and sports entertainment came together to share their philosophies and visions for the next phase of the gaming industry.

With a diverse group of speakers ranging from c-suite figures like Esports World Cup Foundation CEO Ralf Reichert and Savvy Games Group CEO Brian Ward to world-renowned athletes and players like Olympic gold medalist Alex Morgan and chess grandmaster Magnus Carlsen — and even keynotes provided by multiple members of Saudi royal family — NGSC25 presented an array of perspectives from people at the nexus of gaming’s evolution. Additionally, there was the groundbreaking announcement of EWCF’s next major endeavor: the Esports Nations Cup.

But among the presentations from industry leaders, one panel was vastly different. The final act to take the stage before HRH Prince Fahad bin Mansour bin Nasser Al Saud’s closing remarks was a conversation between two artists: game developer Hideo Kojima and filmmaker Nicolas Winding Refn. And while their fireside chat, titled “Blurring the Lines Between Games and Cinema,” touched on many aspects of the business of video games, it also provided a look beneath the veil of artistry from a pair of authentic creators.

Over the span of 40 minutes, Kojima and Refn touched on everything from their longtime friendship to the purpose of art itself, and provided some insight into the convergence and symbiotic nature of game development and filmmaking.

Technological evolution in art

Both Kojima and Refn have decades-long careers that span multiple tectonic shifts in their respective industries, with each having ridden the waves of technological advancements and constantly changing industry trends. Kojima is perhaps most well known for creating the Metal Gear series during his time at Konami, but his full body of work — including visual novel games like Snatcher (1988) and his more recent PlayStation opus Death Stranding 2: On the Beach (2025) — stand as technological achievements that toe the line between cinematic storytelling and interactivity.

Kicking off the panel, Kojima reflects on the history of gaming’s advancements, before looking toward its potential future. “Gaming is always about technology. Movies started 120 years ago, and gaming is only about 50 years old — and there [were] about three revolutions in technology. At first, the games were all 2D, about 16 colors, 16 bits,” he says.

“The biggest, first change was [that] games became 3D. The second is we [became] connected by [the] internet, and you could play [online]. The third is the trend right now that AI is now coming into game creation, and we have not just ChatGPT, but they learn from how the players control. And I think that you’ll take advantage of that.”

Refn, a Danish director and screenwriter, has had an equally prolific career, with a filmography peppered with bold and frequently unnerving projects. His early work with the Pusher trilogy (1996 to 2005) transported viewers into the blood-soaked underbelly of Copenhagen from the perspectives of multiple characters, but it’s his later films like Valhalla Rising (2009), Drive (2011), and Only God Forgives (2013) that have cemented his aura as an uncompromising and frequently divisive director. His gift for visual stark visual storytelling sets him apart, something he sees as a bridge between game development and filmmaking to craft emotionally gripping tales through innovative technology.

“I think that the 2D image of TV and movies are obviously struggling to remain [relevant] the same way because nothing new is being invented. Technology doesn’t really enhance a lot more than what we have, where obviously gaming technology drives the innovation and drives the evolution,” Refn says. “But what is going to be interesting is that – not now, but at a certain point — the convulsion and everything becomes as one. [And] that is still an ongoing philosophical dilemma to figure out. How do those two become more integrated? How can you cry in a game the same way you would cry in a movie?”

“Two teenage boys”

Throughout the years, but especially during the development of his first personally owned IP, Death Stranding, Kojima has become famous for his coven of celebrity friends. Routinely posting on social media with actors like Norman Reedus and Léa Seydoux, as well as acclaimed filmmakers like Guillermo del Toro (Pan’s Labyrinth) and George Miller (the Mad Max series), the developer’s public persona is that of a digital age socialite. But there’s usually a deeper purpose and spirit of collaboration behind the teases — leading fans to constantly speculate about what fruit his meetings will bear as he virtually scans half of Hollywood to potentially place in his next game.

Refn is one such friend who, like the all the names listed, appears in a prominent role in the duology of Death Stranding games. But their relationship goes far beyond a basic collaboration; the two recall meeting some time around 2014 in London (“It was a blind date,” Refn jokes), sparking a friendship that transcends time zones and even language barriers.

“What was interesting was [that] we were both [at] very pivotal moments in our lives, both professionally and personally, and something happened between us that made it much more interesting to communicate — because we’ve actually never spoken together,” Refn says. “[I] don’t speak Japanese and Hideo doesn’t speak English. So, we communicate through music and images, through emotions rather than words, and I guess that’s maybe kept the relationship fresh every time, because we never get tired of each other saying the same things.”

And as difficult as it is to imagine two friends communicating constantly without speaking the same tongue, Kojima and Refn effortlessly bounce between topics as they talk, as if though existing entirely on their own wavelength. Partially, it’s through Kojima’s interpreter, Aki Saito, who has worked with the developer for decades. But by their own admission, it also boils down to the simplest lines of communication — sending each other pictures and memes (“[Like] two teenage boys,” Refn says).

Regardless of how they converse, it’s the shared dialogue that strengthens their bond. Refn points toward a core set of values that links the two men, especially being from different industries. “I think that, obviously, in our fields, we are who we are. But that’s also how we can feel equal. We’re not competitors, we’re not fighting the same fight in terms of our businesses, but we are similar in our philosophies,” Refn says.

“And I think that [we] have a lot of empathy for humanity, and we believe that time is essence. Time you lose and you’ll never get it back. So, if we are to take or ask for people’s time, you want to give them an experience. You want to give them something to travel with, something that can change, something that can inspire.”

Working on Death Stranding

After becoming friends, Kojima and Refn spent some time dancing around what a collaboration could look like. Although neither specifically recalls how the conversation went, Refn ultimately wound up at Kojima’s studio in Tokyo to be digitally scanned as an in-game avatar. In the games, Heartman is an important supporting character with a fantastical twist — suffering from a fictional ailment called DOOMS, he dies every 21 minutes before being resuscitated.

Looking back on the process, Kojima laments that his goal was to make extremely realistic renders of his subjects (Refn included), but even with cutting edge technology there remains room for improvement. “The actors, [I] really wanted them to make them look very natural in my game, and I did my best in [Death Stranding], but I didn’t really think it was quite there to the level that I wanted it to be,” Kojima says. “So, [I] wanted to have Norman and Léa appear in [Death Stranding 2], and I really wanted to focus on how real I could make them come to life.”

“We scanned and we made a rig, an AI machine learning rig. We took so much time and made sure that we scanned them into digital but made sure that they move analog in a way. And it took so much time,” Kojima adds. “Looking back [to Death Stranding 2], I think it’s okay. But my next project, I think I want to make it more realistic.”

From Refn’s perspective, the process was much easier — after all, he gets to be immortalized by his good friend. “Look, I’m just the eye candy. I get scanned, and I’m now part of Hideo’s world, and that’s a great privilege to be molded, because obviously like in film and television, you always have to deal with the performers,” Refn says. “Where, here, I’m clay — and I find that very interesting.”

Forever the storyteller, Refn also sees a deeper meaning to his inclusion in Death Stranding that goes beyond the vanity of his virtual sculpture. “I did realize that maybe I was, in a way, playing his alter ego,” Refn adds. “So I am, in a way, Hideo Kojima — but in a game. And I think that’s something that I take very much with heart. Heartman.”

Sources of inspiration

Following their jaunt down memory lane, the conversation pivots to the nature of entertainment. While both Kojima and Refn themselves are highly influential to a generation of artists, it’s clear that neither wants to be anyone’s single source of inspiration. While both consider themselves to be products of the film and television they grew up consuming, they warn that a lack of a diverse appetite for art and media can be detrimental to future creators.

“If you think about cinema when it was first invented, the inventors were writers, poets, painters. They weren’t cinephiles. So, they invented the language of cinema, which obviously has evolved into gaming and other formats,” Refn says. “But, if we keep on floating in the same pond, we never get challenged.”

Kojima, too, wants to be challenged — although not necessarily in the ways you’d expect from a game developer. In fact, despite creating some of the most seminal video games in the medium’s history, the designer says he barely plays them at all these days. “I don’t play games so much. I watch movies, read books, meet people and go to museums, and I’m not copying anything from a game. And there are lot of game creators just watching other games,” Kojima says.

“We should think outside the box and be stimulated by things all around us, and that’s what creators are,” he adds. “Games take a lot of time, and I probably just play maybe one game a year. I play my games by checking, but I have to think outside the box, and what’s happening outside the game world is more important to me to incorporate into my game.”

In a way, it’s not entirely surprising that an artist looks outside their own medium for inspiration. Kojima himself points toward other great storytellers in the world of animation who, although they may have inspired him, were clearly pulling from a litany of other artforms for their own work. “[Directors] like Mamoru Oshii or [Katsushiro] Otomo, the reason why they create their masterpieces is because they haven’t just watched anime. They have seen European films and [they] wanted to put that in anime,” Kojima adds. “I think the young people are playing games a lot, and that’s good. But on top of that, I want people to feel art or see art and then digest it themselves and create new games.”

Authenticity is expensive

Although they work in different mediums, both Kojima and Refn understand the tenuous thread that ties the authenticity of their art with the very real fact that development (of both games and film) is costly. Although you’d be hard-pressed to say either creator’s work is overtly commercial by any means, they’re still, fundamentally, products. And the struggle to finance their work will always create friction with realizing their visions.

“[We understand] that money is [a] driving factor in what we do. We have both chosen professions that need a lot of capital and investment and through technical evolutions. You can reduce costs, which is one of the benefits of technology. But it is also being true,” Refn says. “I think it’s looking like this: if you create with authenticity, if you create with your heart, that will never expire — it will last forever. And it will always be renewed by the next generation. In a way, it’s a very simple equation, but it’s also challenging to be true to yourself in a world that’s so chaotic.”

Kojima likens balance between the commercial and critical success of his work to Stanley Kubrick’s 1968 film 2001: A Space Odyssey (“I love that movie”), noting that while its initial reception may not have been stellar with older fans, it was younger audiences who took to the movie’s radical themes and beauty. “[The first people] who acknowledged were the young people. Same with games. Something new is always something strange. And people who react to that are the people who are wanting stimulation, like creators,” Kojima says.

“And those people will probably pass [that] on 10 years, 20 years from now. These days, you don’t have to go to school, you don’t have to learn anything to create a movie or create a game. Because on the internet, you have all the tools. You have all the things that you want to make,” he says.

Refn agrees that the soul of artistry in a commercial world rest in the hands of younger audiences who, despite having exponentially more distractions and forms of media to consume, aren’t yet jaded. They can see through the hollow veneer of lazily produced pseudo-art. “I think that the younger generation, [they] crave authenticity. They crave originality. They crave to be inspired. And in a way, this is where Hideo and I are. We are rebels. We are disruptors, because we believe that you can make money, but you can also do good.”

He continues, “I think that, in a way, this notion of attention span and superficiality — yeah, of course, if you mass-produce nothingness, I wouldn’t care. Why would my kids care? But if you create with your heart, they care. Creativity and experiences still need to be meaningful. You can’t just mass-produce it thinking it’s going to work, because diminishing returns continue to just go down, down, down, down, down. And young people are smart, and they go past it. They’ll see through it. Don’t think you can monetize nothingness, because you can’t. Maybe in a short term, but [in] longevity, you disappear. You’re erased.”

Looking forward

Although they initially dabbled in a collaboration on Death Stranding, neither Kojima nor Refn are done working together. The question is, what will their next endeavor look like? Sadly (to some) it likely won’t be a clear cut as a video game or movie.

Yet, there’s still a trail to follow. Earlier this year, the duo stepped outside of both their comfort zones to collaborate on an art installation — one that naturally incorporates the visual mediums they’re most familiar with. Titled “Satellites,” the exhibition plays heavily on the themes discussed in their panel, wherein the two creators have created a heartfelt dialogue that transcends their language barrier. First appearing at Prada Aoyama in Tokyo, Refn teases that the project will likely expand to other locations.

On what comes next, Kojima is hopeful that their next creation will formulate soon, but will take a very different shape — one that blends their sensibilities as well as their identities. “It’s like, we’ll form a new team, and we want to do something new. It’s not Nicolas’ movie or [my] game,” Kojima says. “We’ll have connection and create nickname[s] together, but we’ll create something totally different. And it’s like entertainment and art at the same time.”

As their conversation nears its end before the crowd NGSC crowd in Riyadh, Kojima and Refn pause for a moment to take in all that they’ve experienced throughout their visit to the Saudi capital. Having attended the Esports World Cup for the first time and seeing the potential it holds to bring together global audiences and creators alike, it’s clear that their internal gears are turning.

“I think being here is very inspiring. It’s a super fascinating place to have a talk between us, because so many things are happening,” Refn says to audience in his closing statement. “It’s a meeting of worlds, but it’s also opportunities, and I think that’s what we always have to remember: money is fine, but inspiration is more exciting. Let’s make the world a better place.”

With a smile, Kojima follows suit, addressing the onlookers: “You have all the things that you need to create something you want. So, let’s take advantage of what we could use. Anything can be art, movies or games. Let’s create something, and let’s create the future together. I want to play that, and I want to see that.”

“And then I will retire, probably.”

Both the Esports World Cup and the New Global Sport Conference will return in 2026 to Riyadh, Saudi Arabia.